Following is a letter forwarded to me by a local combat veteran of the Marine Corps. His name has been deleted, but he has given permission to publish his petition for explanations for the declination of life insurance as a result of having a PTSD diagnosis. ( Note. Since this was posted the author has elected to share his name. It is Pete Bourret. He is a combat veteran of the Marine Corps who served in Vietnam.)
I am familiar with this very sad fact of life. I am equally conversant with its prevalence and the gross lack of justice involved. The impunity embedded in our nations Insurance industry is soon to become a national disgrace. The irony of the fact that a warrior can defend his/her nation and its system of capitalism and in turn not be qualified for life insurance, is beyond comprehension.
Someone, somewhere, has created some bogus science that states that Post Traumatic Stress shortens ones life span. This veteran is asking to see proof of this assertion. I am asking to see studies, from either the National Institute of Health or the VA, that indicate this confabulation.
Can you imagine the impact on a young soldier with a family when they learn that the mental health care they received on the heels of war is preventing them from protecting their very own family’s finances. I see rage on the horizon. I see class action law suits. And worse, I see the myriad of caring outreach programs at Vet Centers and VA clinics backfiring when the word travels that you are sealing off your future financial options. Who do these folks think they are? Maybe we should just draft all executives in the insurance industry first.
So the citizen soldier who is wounded in war is rendered incapable of being a full citizen in the country they just upheld. Is there a more poignant hypocrisy to be found?
We will be re-visiting this open wound in the veteran community over the next several months. Possibly, the parent company of the Citizen, Gannett, can help us out with a feature article in USA Today, which is known for its veteran and military coverage. Or are they too owned by the Insurance Industry?
November 11, 2009
Pruco Life
PO Box 8660
Philadelphia, PA 19176-8660
Denise Holmgren
Vice President, Underwriting:
This letter is in response to your companies response to my request for specific information, which I have requested on multiple occasions yet have failed to receive; a copy of your original letter will not suffice.
Please advise me if I should conclude that your determination of my uninsurability was based on my Post Traumatic Stress Disorder diagnosis in general. I ask this because I have repeatedly requested the specific information (three times) that you utilized in your determination; however, I only received several hundred pages of my VA mental health records without any specific details. Let me be as clear as I can be: I expect you to submit to me the specific language that caused your organization to draw the conclusion that I am not an appropriate candidate for life insurance.
This is my last request for this information that you have an obligation to provide to me in a timely manner. I find it ironic that I am writing this letter to your organization on Veterans’ Day, yet it seems that your company fails to honor veterans who served and became casualties of war. The fact that your organization believes that a veteran with a PTSD diagnosis is a poor candidate for a life insurance policy shows that there is great ignorance about this diagnosis within your organization. Had you bothered to check with my psychiatrist because of a concern, you would have discovered that I am much more than the basic notes that he wrote. You were too busy to do that because we know that the business of American business is the bottom line. For veterans like myself, when I volunteered to serve as a combat Marine in Vietnam in 1967 and 1968, my bottom line was to defend your freedom and to protect my fellow Marines. I guess our values do not coincide.
In closing, I ask you to re-evaluated your process for determining insurability in the area of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Regardless, it only makes sense that potential recruits to the Armed Forces should be made aware through full disclosure that serving is also hazardous to their insurability should they be traumatized by of combat. As a retired English teacher with too much time on his hands, I will gladly set the educational process in motion. I think it is time that people learn how your organization actually “supports” the troops.
Happy Veterans’ Day,
Peter Bourret/USMC
It’s just so important that you’re talking about this. Thank you for doing the work that you do. It’s a Happy Veteran’s Day indeed having you among the celebrated.
Recently I read that there are more active duty and reservist dying from suicide than in the war. The brunt of PTSD is born by those men and women of conscience. If anyone is contemplating suicide, don’t do it and this is why. As a country your greatest service will we fighting for the rights of people in America and watching over us. The best leaders are born from conflict. And if you kill yourself off you’ll leave generations at the mercy of those of little conscience. Like the politicians, lobbyist and greedy thieves that have brought our country to its financial and socially irresponsible knees.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves why young people are dying to defend the right of insurance companies to exercise capitalism in its purest, free market form. Their answer may be that Capitalism is about nothing else but serving self interest and practicing naked greed.
There is confusion here between “insurance” and medical care.
This consusion is caused by the US deciding long ago, and erroneously, to assign our healthcare to insurance companies.
Healthcare is a right – everyone should receive decent healthcare regardless of their station in life – we never should have considered it “insurance” in the first place.
Life insurance is not a right – it is a private financial speculation ( a bet ) and the marketplace can consider any criteria it wants to really – it should be able to charge you differently if you are black or gay or smoke or if you are a married white christian female.
As a former life insurance agent I will make a few comments.
One of the most frustrating parts of the job was to get people to accept the personal responsibility that was needed to make the decision to purchase life insurance. I used to joke that I had killed more people at their kitchen table than I cared to count.
Payment for life insurance is based on the perceived risk the company is assuming plus expenses and profit. Every part of that equation is fixed except for the risk. Because of the competative market underwriters need to be as accurate as possible in their assessment, otherwise their company will not be in business long.
Because of the unknown factor from the underwriter’s point of view, that because of the small market it’s more effective to decline.
It’s incumbent on soldiers to take advantage of the life insurance program offered upon enlistment.
Last but not least the insurance industry has guaranteed issue programs available. You might check through AARP
I agree with much that you have said here Tip, but are you saying that life insurance is a “private financial speculation” and health insurance is not? I don’t see the difference. Discrimination is discrimination, whether the product is insurance or housing.
Cashgreen’s comments through the eyes of a former insurance agent are helpful–sort of. I mean, I think we all pretty much know about the perceived risk factor. But where is it?
Yes, taking the insurance upon enlistment is important, but those policies are small. Disabled veterans also have an option for life insurance, but only for a brief window of time immediately after being rated. How much life insurance can they get? A whooping $20k.
I have a veteran friend who is attempting to get life insurance to benefit his adult disabled son. How long will a $20K policy benefit his son?
These are the men and women we proudly claim to support. Insurance companies have apparently decided yellow ribbons are sufficient.
Currently the Serviceman’s Group Life Insurance max amount is $200,000.
Insurance is an item that needs to be bought when we don’t see an immediate need. I understand that is hard to do. I hope stories like this will wake up people to the responsibility they have.
$200,000 is only for active duty service members. The offering is a maximum of $20,000 for veterans. The way to beat the system, is to get your insurance before your diagnosis.
This is not beating the system. It is the way insurance is supposed to be bought.
Cashgreen, well said, and thanks for your inputs, based on your experience in the insurance field.
If PTSD makes veterans uninsurable through the private sector, then the government—the veteran’s employer at the time, and on whose behalf, they were injured—should step in. To the extent that the government is not stepping in, than that should be remedies. (Needless to say, I’m sure we’ll all have differing perceptions on whether the government is doing “enough.”)
Cashgreen makes a good point—it is hard (if not impossible) to quantify the risk posed by insuring a person diagnosed with PTSD. I’ll stipulate to Mike’s point that the available medical evidence doesn’t point to suicide as a leading cause of death among veterans. But, we don’t have an extensive, established body of case histories and studies on PTSD, do we? (As we have for cancer and other illnesses).
Insurance companies make profit by calculating and then beating risks. Specifically, they have a fiduciary duty to their clients and investors to run their businesses efficiently. They can’t willingly take on unquantifiable risks.
NOW, here are three things the federal government could do:
1) Provide insurance
2) Provide subsidies to help PSTD-diagnosed vets pay higher premiums for private coverage.
3) (This is the one I think Mike’s hinting at) Make it illegal to deny insurance based on a PTSD diagnosis.
Mike, if you’re right on the evidence, and the PTSD-impaired vet isn’t really an elevated insurance risk—then the insurance companies don’t really risk much. Plus, the companies can then tell their investors and other clients that it’s not a business decision anymore—it’s the law.
So, Mike, if you’re right on the medical evidence, I’m all for Option 3. Otherwise, we should pursue Option .
OK—some corrections:
1) second paragraph—should read “remedieD” not “remedies”
2) Too many missed paragraph breaks to count. Note to self–don’t post while eating dinner…
Last modification—I hope: Last sentence should read “Otherwise, we should pursue Option 1.”
Do you think TIP and Mop should be treated the same because they are in the same zip code? Should they be treated differently because they are in different zip codes? Ummm—YES, if one lives in a riskier zip code than the other, based on the available evidence (e.g., reported auto thefts).
Did you read Cashgreen’s explanation above of how insurance companies calculate premiums? If not, I’ll reprint it here: Payment for life insurance is based on the perceived risk the company is assuming plus expenses and profit.
In the interest of proposing a solution to this problem, I offer….Option 4: If a veteran is denied private-sector life insurance due to a diagnosis of PTSD, federal laws/regulations should be amended so they can apply for SGLI—even if their window of eligibility has closed.
Seems fair to me.
So, Cash, the problem here is that veterans should have been responsible enough to opt into the Serviceman’s Group Life Insurance when they enlisted. What ever were those WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc. enlistees thinking when they turned down a chance at a $200,000 policy? Tch, tch.
To answer your question, winneo—Yes, they should have opted in. It was their responsibility. That was, and is, our system.
If you want to change it, please try. Get out, organize, propose new laws and elect people who will pass the laws you want. Until then, you work within the system we have.
Responsibility, winneo—you should try it.
Mr. Smith, You don’t even know me, yet you say “Responsibility, winneo–you should try it.”
What is that all about? You know absolutely nothing about my responsibilities and how I handle them.
Did Mr. Bourette apply for insurance while he was healthy? As Cashgreen said above, that’s when you’re supposed to apply for it. You’re supposed to already have it when the time comes where you need it.
And, from what I’ve experienced, the amount of coverage offered by government benefit programs goes up over time. I’ll defer to Mike here—but I’ll bet that anyone who signed up for SGLI (or its equivalent) in the late sixties and kept the coverage in force would have coverage today that’s worth much more than $20,000.
As for my “responsibility” comment, winnieo—-yes, there was some snark in there. However, you seem eager to blame life’s trouble on ominous forces (insurance companies, capitalism) that are, ahem, “conspiring” to keep average people down.
It’s not “The Man’s” responsibility to look our for us. Ultimately, it’s ours.
Well said FB. Winnieo is a whiny, uninformed, meddling pain in the ass. Sorry whinyo, I calls ‘em as I see ‘em. Don’t worry winny, you shan’t hear from me again.
Just wondering–were you in the military? Did you opt into the $200,000 Serviceman’s insurance?
Back at ya, winneo. You seem all too eager to question people’s bona fides—what are yours? Your military background is…?
I wasn’t talking to you.
Sorry, that was a little curt. It does look like I was talking to you, but I was talking to Cashgreen.
For the record, since you asked, I’m just a plain American who cares about veterans. I have never been in the military.
I wasn’t “questioning” anyone’s “bona fides.” I was just asking because Cashgreen’s opinions may (or may not) be based on his personal experiences in the military.
As for perceived risk. Sad to say one of the leading causes of death for a PTSD patient is suicide. After two years a life policy will pay on suicide. Because self inflicted death skews the percentages, trying to assess the risk does not fit accepted actuarial tables. Sorry.
The question at hand is the “perceived risk” Whose perception and based upon what data? There is no evidence that suicide is a “leading cause” of death. In fact the suicides are occurring in the active duty population, not the veteran community, ergo the leading cause of death is the Army, if you are to extend the “perceived” syllogism.
And of course the moral plea in the letter that was submitted, is that those actuarial tables only exist because of the citizen soldier who fights for their protection.
As for the small population that is also a mistaken. Peacetime/6 million. WWll/ 2.6 million. Korean War /2.8 million. Vietnam War/7.8 million. Gulf War through 2008/5.3 million
You are right. My reference to self inflicted was incorrect. Here is the real risk.
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-1/Geisinger-study-3A-PTSD-causes-early-death-from-heart-disease-23311-1/
Yet another distinction Cash. There is no discernment between “treated and untreated” PTSD. And cortisol studies do not hold up over time. A veteran who has been through a regimen like our local VA shows absolutely no increase in cortisol levels. Meditation alone can reduce cortisol levels below the mean. So can saying a rosary.
So the point remains a moral one. Just make up actuarial tables that exclude death for the first 10 years after issuance. Why can the combat vet not live the same life as those they defended, with the same options? Banks are reducing their risks, they don’t decline your deposits. Just lower the risk and issue a policy so a man can bury himself. Is that alot to ask of the richest nation on earth?
You are finally going to a place that true discussion can begin. Maybe if we just went by the Golden Rule. Trying to disscect society by nuancce and position or lack there of is a lost cause. If we can not learn to accept ourselves as indivuals without dependence we will never learn to help another.
“dependence” is a pretty broad term. And I am not sure I want to live without it. I depend on my wife. I depend on my Police and Fire Department. I depend on my faith.
America depends on the combat veteran when they need them. It ought to be mutual. That is a far cry from whining.
The Catch -22 of these medical studies is that the VA does not accept them as the cause of death for PTSD. In fact, when it comes to dependent death benefits for the surviving spouse, they do accept PTSD as a cause of death. Yet.
So how can one link a longevity study to a psychological condition that has only had a diagnosis since 1980? WWll guys are living into their 90’s. Why would we not?
And if you note in the last paragraph of Mr. Bourret’s letter he is simply asking for a re-evaluation of the criteria, and to see hard copy of the current criteria.
I agree with much that you have said here Tip, but are you saying that life insurance is a “private financial speculation” and health insurance is not? I don’t see the difference. Discrimination is discrimination, whether the product is insurance or housing.
I am saying that life insurance is private finincail speculation and health CARE is not – and this confusion with right to healthcare is dur to us having let our healthcare system run by “insurance” companies.
It is discrimination to not medically treat someone who is 80 years old, or who has cancer.
It is simply good business not to sell life insurance to someone who is 80 years old or has cancer.
You don’t have a “right” to life insurance and whether you are covered and what your premiums are is decided by the insurance company that is taking the opposite side of your bet.
really? how about auto insurance ……… can they discriminate there too tippy. apparently you thinks its okay to discriminate sometimes, even if isdiscrimination by race, marital status, religion or whatever. what will your fellow liberals say?
health insurance a right? by what authority other than liberal slop jar ideology .
“really? how about auto insurance ……… can they discriminate there too tippy.”
Yes – your insurance rates will be higher if you are young, or if you have a bad driving record, for instance.
But don’t worry moppy – no one expects a Marine to understand anything as complicated as insurance.
Check out Auto Insurance rates between Zip Codes in Tucson, and you will see some pretty blatant discrimination in action. Even kinda looks like Insurance Socialism. Or is it social engineering. The rates in 85716 are not the same as 85719. I guess we are all just homogenized homo sapiens in boxes of zip codes. Do you think TIP and Mop should be treated the same because they are in the same zip code? Should they be treated differently because they are in different zip codes?
Of course it’s social engineering. Most of capitalism is social engineering. Possible it’s the “invisible hand” of prejudice. The zip code makes sense in certain ways (for the insurance companies especially), but it is morally unfair. Nobody every accused capitalism of fairness or high morality though, right?
The zip code thing really slaps you in the face when you move from one to another. You will have a good rate if you live in a upper class neighborhood and have a perfect driving record, but you can move two blocks away and lose that good rate. It has nothing to do with YOU, nothing personal. But it is one of the many excellent ways to keep “them” down. Pile enough of those on and “they” will stay down. It’s the American way.
“But don’t worry moppy – no one expects a Marine to understand anything as complicated as insurance.”
You gotta admit, moppy; even though it’s at your expense, this is funny.
Going to try to post again (been having trouble)
This veteran should try to get insurance at:
http://www.usaa.com
Excellent company especially serving retired military
That’s very kind of you, Tip. Retired military is, of course, not precisely the subject here, but just imagine the millions of policies USAA could sell if they do sell to disabled veterans.
They do
FYI: My years of service 1967/1971 USAF Ssgt. E-5
No I did not take advantge of the insurance benefit offered me. I chose to learn from my foolishness not whine.
Do you mind if I ask you what was offered at that time? If you remember? Thanks.
Whine? Is there a difference between shining a light on a problem and whining?
So you must be one of the vets who can’t get life insurance – you learned from your foolishness and don’t whine about it though. Good for you.
You might want to follow up on Tip’s “tip” and check out USAA then. I hope you will let us know how that goes – there are a lot of other guys and gals in your same situation who will appreciate the information.
Oh! Perhaps you have not yet been back here to read my other post, but I think it would be helpful to know the dollar amount of insurance you didn’t take advantage of. It seems to me to be an important part of this discussion. I have no idea what was offered at that time, so it would be helpful if you can remember.
Or, maybe someone else reading this blog would know the answer to that question?
$200,000 in Life Insurance is for active duty soldiers and sailors and Marines going into combat. It is a recruting tool. This insurance was not offered before recent wars. Cash and company can speak of responsibility until the sun comes up, and it has nothing to do with history or the reality of the now.
I guess that will silence the “responsibility and whining” crowd. We won’t see one more peep out of them.
You’re sure of that, Santacruz? I have looked everywhere I can think of to find that information. It certainly puts a new light on the subject, doesn’t it?
Whoa, wait a minute. Cashgreen said he didn’t take the insurance benefit offered to him, but rather choose to learn from his foolishness not whine. The Air Force must have been the only branch with the insurance option.
Important subject, Mr. Brewer. This is one subject that needs to remain alive. Keep up the good work.
PEEP!!!
See above, winneo. Option 4 or Option 1. If Mr. Bourett cannot get private-sector insurance due to a federal service-related issue, then he should demand relief from the federal government.
That leads me to … Option 5. Mr. Bourette should ask someone to sue Pruco Life on his behalf. The Department of Veterans Affairs comes to mind. If Pruco Life is denying coverage for specious reasons, perhaps Mr. Bourette has a case.
But, I think you’ll find that it’s up to Pruco Life to decide who they do or don’t insure. If I may ask, has Mr. Bourette been denied insurance from other companies for this reason? Why doesn’t he approach another insurer.
Good suggestions Don. I knew this would be a delicate and thorny issue. It will come around again down the trail, as I complete more research.
Mr. Bourret was just the first to come forward, there are 11 others I have interviewed that have identical problems. 4 Iraq vets. 5 Vietnam vets, and 2 Desert Storm vets. The philosophy and ideological bendings of these posters are not on their radar. As Cash maintained, nuances of thought are not the game here. Fairness is the core topic.
The others that engage in the symmetrical escalation of, who is whining and who is not, is just part of the world of blogger trolls. Most all are misinterpreting each other. I was inoculated long ago to such, “ad hominems.” My mother loved me.
Again, I say Don, your thoughtful suggestions are well taken. They have been forwarded to the military writer for USA Today, along with private emails to me,with permission of course, to compile material for a national article addressing a long standing problem with life insurance for disabled veterans.
I am hoping that an acquaintance of mine, whom I interviewed when he was in Tucson, Joe Galloway, the AP Reporter featured in “We Were Soldiers Once,” will be able to lend some guidance.
This topic first arose for myself in an ongoing conversation I had with the late Col. David Hackworth, who was kind enough to mentor me about military writing while I was taking journalism classes. Hardly a whiner man.
As a footnote to all this, many of the bloggers here are familiar with Winneo. Winneo is part of a career military family, highly informed about veterans affairs , and published. I find the questions posted by Winneo to be as provocative as yourselves, and searching… also as yourselves… but hardly whining. Lets move on from that stance, and respect the men who are living with the problem. They are not whining, they are looking for help. And believe me, they read this stuff.
Mike, I too met Joe Galloway when he was here for the VVA Leadership Conference. Quite a man! Did you know he is the only civilian in the history of our nation to receive a Bronze Star? Did you ask him if he has good life insurance?
And we all miss the “The Hack”, Col. Hackworth was the most decorated soldier in all of Nam. I love what he once said about all of his ribbons. “My Combat Action Ribbon means the most to me, because no one had to put me in for it, I earned it.”
If you had him as a mentor, you are one lucky hombre. Don’t let these dudes wear you down, Hack wouldn’t!
Thank you, Mr. B., for your kind words. It can be quite unpleasant here with the personal attacks that substitute for intelligent thinking.
We must also remember the women and men who live with and love the men and women who are living with the problem. In the end, it’s the spouses who have loved and supported our veterans, many for several decades, who suffer. If that reality sounds like whining, so be it.
I very like your site.